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hybrids or alternatives available?   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #241 of 1489 |
RE: Re: [Hybrid-Cars] hybrids or alternatives available?

I suggest that anyone truly interested in where hydrogen is going to
come from in the developing Hydrogen Economy read the Department of
Energy's National Hydrogen Energy Vision document located on their
Hydrogen, Fuel Cell & Infrastructure Technology Program web site;
http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/.

One current program that is being employed in California is the zero
emission well to wheel program. There is a bus line in California
operating under this program using wind turbine energy with
electrolyzer hydrogen generation. Mobile eletrolyzers are amiable to
communities with that do early adoption of the Hydrogen Economy.

The National Hydrogen Energy Vision document recommends early
adopters the Hydrogen Economy to use steam reforming and oxygen
reduction of hydrocarbons with progression towards cleaner renewable
energy. The question with hydrogen from hydrocarbons is not if or
how much CO2 emissions occur but where they occur. With hydrogen
generated from hydrocarbons the CO2 emission only occur at the
generation plant where as with the hydrocarbon engine the CO2 occurs
where ever the engine is.

If you live in an non-attainment area, with a hydrocarbon engine your
polluting right in the area. But if operate on hydrogen, the
hydrogen generation and the emissions can be located outside the non-
attainment area. In addition the CO2 can be captured and sequestered
at the hydrogen generation plant, something that would be hard to do
on a car.

Personally I don't see a hydrogen verses hybrid issue. I see
hydrogen and hybrids to be a very good marriage, perhaps better than
hydrocarbons and hybrids.

Hydrogen is coming on strong. The Hydrogen Economy gets closer every
day. Here is an article to give you an idea how close (originally
posted as One Million Hydrogen Cars in US by 2007);

HOUSTON--March 13, 2003--Researched by Industrialinfo.com (Industrial
Information Resources Incorporated; Houston, Texas). All key players
are on board with the push to see hydrogen/hybrid cars on the
highways in big numbers as soon as possible. Governments, auto
manufacturers, fuel companies, industrial gas companies, fuel cell
companies, and a broad based range of technical service providers are
all busy integrating products and services to support the push to
hydrogen power.

Encouraging the positive manufacturing activity is the willingness of
institutions, municipalities, and transport utility clients to
welcome the prospects of clean and efficient hydrogen and hybrid
produced power as soon as it is commercially available. This full
acceptance of the hydrogen-based future for the auto industry
gathered pace and swept in over the last twelve months with
unpredictable vigor. Every day brings news of new technological,
breakthroughs, successful technological applications tests and moves
by the industry majors.

In a recent report on the use of hydrogen for petrochemicals,
renewable energy and agricultural chemicals, Business Communications
of Connecticut said that total U.S. hydrogen demand will increase to
14.45 trillion cubic feet (tcf) in 2007 from 10.96 tcf in 2002,
representing an average annual growth rate of 5.7%.

The BCC report also forecast that more than one million hydrogen
vehicles would be operating in the U.S. through 2007, increasing the
hydrogen market for renewable energy production.

Latest in the welter of major auto manufacturer announcements is that
of GM being given the first ever approval to drive a liquid hydrogen
fueled vehicle on Japan's public roads. HydroGen 3, GM's 400
kilometer range vehicle, also received the first ever approval for a
liquid hydrogen storage system for vehicle use from the High Pressure
Gas Safety Institute of Japan. GM has both liquid and compressed
hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in its testing fleet and is exploring
several options in hydrogen storage, including liquid, compressed and
various hydrides. GM has also successfully tested a 700 bar
(10,000PSI) vehicle hydrogen storage system that extends the range of
the HydroGen 3 by up to 70% when compared to the equivalent 5,000 PSI
system.

Fedex will be using HydroGen 3 on regular delivery routes and
providing GM support engineers with full feedback. The vehicle has a
top speed of 160 kph and stores up to 4.6 kilograms of liquid
hydrogen at -253C onboard. The fuel cell has been incorporated into a
single module and the need for a peak power buffer battery has been
eliminated.

Air Products and Chemicals (NYSE:APD) (Allentown, Pennsylvania)
recently put on a show in Washington promoting a range of hydrogen
refueling techniques and products. Among the items on show was the
mobile hydrogen fueler that is mounted to a trailer to allow for
vehicle fueling at a customer's site. This is designed to bridge the
hydrogen fueling infrastructure gap which will exist until a full
service network of hydrogen equipped gas stations can be brought
online. The system is monitored remotely to ensure 24 hour a day
fueling availability. The unit contains stored hydrogen from an
external source so there is no fixed capacity to potentially limit
the number of vehicles to be filled. Customers are given operational
and fueler safety training by the supplier.

Stuart Energy Systems (TSX:HHO)(Mississauga, Ontario) has sold a
hydrogen energy station (HES) to Skydraft, a company which supplies
natural gas fuel to the entire bus fleet of the city of Malmo in
Sweden. The HES unit generates, compresses, and dispenses hydrogen
and can also dispense a blend of hydrogen and natural gas to the bus
fleet. Adding hydrogen to natural gas reduces tailpipe emissions. The
blending dispenser will allow mixes from 100% pure hydrogen through
to 100% natural gas which will enable full evaluation of the mixes.
The HES to be installed at Skydraft in the second half of 2003
consists of a water electrolysis-based hydrogen generation,
compression, storage and gas/hydrogen dispenser and will produce
about 80 kg of pure hydrogen per day.

Norsk Hydro (NYSE:NHY) (Oslo, Norway) reports that their new filling
station 'hydrogen electrolyzer' will use an electric charge to
extract hydrogen from water to power FCV (fuel cell vehicles). The
company is a participant in the eleven-partner European Union joint
venture, Icelandic New Energy, to make Iceland into the
first 'hydrogen economy' and to be fossil fuel free by 2030. The
Norsk Hydro electrolyzer station will be installed in the Icelandic
capital, Reykjavik, in April and will fuel DaimlerChrysler passenger
buses with a range of 200 kilometers. The system will give car sized
FCVs a range of about 400 kilometers which is about the range
obtained now with a gas tank fill up. Buses will carry 40 kilos of
hydrogen and cars will need about five kilos. Filling stations will
need to supply 5-kilowatt hours of electricity to process the water
which is about what it takes the kitchen stove to cook dinner.

The electrolyzers are produced at the company's factory at Notodden
west of Oslo and the Icelandic filling station project will cost $7.7
million. A second filling station will be shipped to Hamburg, Germany
in May.

The above items are samples from the feverish flow of hydrogen power
applications that appears to have attained the speed of development
and innovation hitherto associated only with the microchip industry.

Industrialinfo.com (IIR) is the leading provider of global industrial
market research. We specialize in helping companies develop
information solutions to maximize their sales and marketing efforts.
For more information on trends and upcoming construction activities
for international energy markets as well as other industrial sectors
send inquiries to energygroup@i... or visit us online
at www.industrialinfo.com or www.iirenergy.com.


Dan Berndt





Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:18 pm

berndtdw
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Message #241 of 1489 |
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howdee, last weekend i got to attend a market research event that compared (among others) the honda civic hybrid (which i own) and the toyota prius (which id...
hfelton11
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Mar 12, 2003
12:26 am

... Both yes. You can include '00 Insights too. ... Later this year. ... Yes. ... Killed. If you don't own it already, you are out of luck. No more from ...
Linda
doingourpart
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Mar 12, 2003
12:41 am

... oops - didnt realize how long theyd been out! :) ... read something interesting about thes having the ability to refill from a hookup to your normal ...
hfelton11
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Mar 13, 2003
3:46 am

... Phill, fill, get it? I'd like one of these in my home if it's really only a grand... -Linda...
Linda
doingourpart
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Mar 13, 2003
3:58 am

... stake, plans ... allow drivers to ... $1,000. ... really only a ... you are definitely "plugged in" to the alternative-fuel sites online. :) i dont have...
hfelton11
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Mar 14, 2003
1:59 am

um I just felt the need to cerify a common misconseption. Hydrogen is an extreemely light and combustable gas, but that does not make it dangerous. Infact it...
dude3499
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Mar 14, 2003
9:40 pm

... stake, plans ... drivers to ... Too bad that natural gas outputs volatile organic chemicals and highly toxic exhaust. That will not be a solution to our...
videonovels
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Apr 28, 2003
2:39 am

... Hmm. Where did you find this information? Things I find show that CNG is a pretty clean way to go... ...
Linda
doingourpart
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Apr 28, 2003
1:35 pm

You have a lot of good sources Linda. My source was the California Air Resources Board which found CNG-powered vehicles are cleaner than diesel, but dirtier...
videonovels
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Apr 28, 2003
5:24 pm

DO you have any valid price statistics, I could really use them if you do. THankyou B.T.W.: I am leaning toward the Hydrogen ICE as my research progresses. No...
A J
dude3499
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Mar 12, 2003
11:34 pm

One issue with the hydrogen beyond the refueling is that there are a lot of emissions put out from the processing. The entire life cycle of the car and fuel...
m_j_alexander
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Mar 13, 2003
1:58 pm

No dude, no you are missinformed. I will admit that it is not polutant free, but it is 300% less pollutant than a normal ICE. THe only pollutants however are...
A J
dude3499
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Mar 13, 2003
9:36 pm

I'm not saying the car isn't clean. I'm saying that the process of getting the hydrogren itself isn't clean....
m_j_alexander
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Mar 13, 2003
9:45 pm

This is one of the many copies of the MIT study http://www.msnbc.com/news/881919.asp?cp1=1 If that link is dead, search on... "Hybrid greener than hydrogen" at...
m_j_alexander
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Mar 13, 2003
10:01 pm

ohhh okay I see what you meen, and I will have to incorporate that into my report. But I also know a little about this and FORD is considering using iron and...
A J
dude3499
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Mar 13, 2003
10:36 pm

... Please don't forget to factor in increased iron mining's negative impact on both the environment and miner safety, among other things. No technology is ...
Linda
doingourpart
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Mar 13, 2003
11:33 pm

As long as the entire process is factored into the results, that would have to include the mining of the iron as well. It is good they are looking into...
m_j_alexander
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Mar 14, 2003
1:49 pm

I suggest that anyone truly interested in where hydrogen is going to come from in the developing Hydrogen Economy read the Department of Energy's National...
berndtdw
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Mar 14, 2003
8:18 pm

I agree that it isn't a 'us' vs 'them'. But the current environment appears to be, forget all about this gas hybrid stuff, we are going to have hydrogen fuel...
m_j_alexander
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Mar 14, 2003
10:00 pm

Geez when does it end how far back are you gonna go??? I know there is no "magic answer", but there are ways to make this stuff efficient enough not to harm...
A J
dude3499
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Mar 14, 2003
1:26 am

I know! I am not saying it is Hydrogen vs Hybrid either. For my thesis paper I am just comparing/contrasting/combining all the information i can about them....
A J
dude3499
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Mar 14, 2003
10:17 pm

... sorry - the current USA-sociological climate is very us vs. them, my bad. if we can "all get along" and hydrogen actually works, then cool. big oops...
hfelton11
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Mar 18, 2003
1:16 am
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